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Richard Nixon resigned from office. Chrystia Freeland, Financial Times US managing editor, interviewed Roger Altman, co-CEO of Evercore Partners. Now a good deal of it was also formulated pre-election, but if I had to choose between the two, which period played the bigger role, the transition period or the pre-election period, I would say the transition period. It was a voluntary choice. He helped me in my efforts and then a year later I helped him in his. He may be forever seen in the middle. Phil Gramm, Ill never forget, predicted that it would usher in a new depressionI mean depression, not recession. Mr. Altman returned to Washington in 1993 to serve as Deputy Secretary of the U.S. Treasury for two years. Was it Mickey Kantor? So an hour before the vote is when we heard that we probably had his vote. Perhaps history will give Clinton credit for having been the man who made welfare reform happen. No, I had very little contact with Mr. Clinton for roughly 20 years after leaving. And that was fairly late, right, when Bowles came in? Of course. Thats true, yes. You had been designated the chief operating officer of the RTC [Resolution Trust Corp.]? That wasnt a very long meeting. No, there were 20-22 people there. There have been a lot of great American Presidents. The bills up on the Hill and it is the object of tremendous controversy and heat and light. She wears her heart on her sleeve much more than he does. So monetary policy has gone from being considerably more powerful than fiscal policy in 93, to being the only policy in town in 2003. There was not a war going on. We had a couple hundred people there. I spoke in this wonderful old hall, in the legislative building, legislative chamber, it was great. Let me give you an example that is appropriate to the present. Howard Paster at the White House, Mike Levy at the Treasury. At this point youre working on policy questions primarily? But there were some deputies, Harold Ickes came in maybe six months or soIm trying to remember when that first shakeup with the deputies was. The politics of the Btu tax per se versus other types of energy taxes, including the gas tax, which we ultimately fell back on, werent well considered. But in any event, the cooperation in both cases was optimal. Only to a degree. WebKathryn Reed Altman and Roger Altman attend State of the Union Dinner at The Re-Opening of the Plaza Hotel Ballroom on January 28, 2008 in New York Roger Altman and Mayor Michael Bloomberg attend THIRTEEN and WLIW 21 Annual Gala Salute at Gotham Hall on April 30, 2007 in New York City. It will be differences of style, differences of perception. A lot of kids who went to Georgetown were interested in having a good time, and most people who went to Chicago were really serious about their academic pursuits and the world around them. But he did give a big speech about healthcare before NAFTA came to a vote, right, as I recall? The ultimate plan was way too complicated for the Congress and the country to grasp and understand and soberly assess. Fifty Republicans had announced their opposition, 49 Democrats had announced their support, and Bob Kerrey was strolling around, going to the movies, which is what he was doing. I recall taking maybe one or two trips with him outside New York, mostly just for my own enjoyment, to see what it was like. Right now, again, were very far away from even the primaries still, let alone the general election, but right now the most active topic of discussion by the candidates by far is healthcare. Its probably strange humor in this instance. Bentsen had run for Congress at a very young age, successfully, was re-elected two or three times, then quit and went into business and was very successful in business. Mr. Clinton became aware of that. No, what Im trying to say is that there were several points of view advanced by some of the people there, who had, in one form or another, policy experience. I guess I probably began to help raise money, its a rough memory now, in the early fall, perhaps September of 91. Lets step back and just recall who the members of the senior economic team were because there was an entire team of people doing this. There were so many exceptions and carve-outs and so forth from the final bill that you couldnt count them. I just want to make one point. The President was all over this. I mean, he seemed to be quite consistent about that, even though the rest of the field was, as I recall, quite a bit more protectionist. It certainly wasnt optimal. And trade was one of Clintons priorities and of course NAFTA was followed by a series of other trade agreements, GATT [General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade] and so forth. Now, of course, as far as working the Hill was concerned, I would take my cues from the constant and joint planning of the White House and Treasury legislative liaison staffs. I spoke to the Oklahoma state legislature. McLarty called me in my hotel room in Tokyo and asked me if I would be willing to take in effect a leave of absence from the Treasury and go to manage a war room that they wanted to set up to try to get this bill passed, the Presidents economic program. I dont know this, but I suspect that was decided largely between the President and Mrs. Clinton. I was in Tokyo, asleep, so I was a bit taken aback. The President was in a tough spot because he was hearing from a lot of people that the effort was too ambitious, but on the other hand, Mrs. Clinton was in charge of it. Bentsen knew Clinton wouldnt get anything else if he didnt. Do you think that making this effort was driven by foreign policy considerations first and foremost, or was it genuinely an economic policy? And presided over eight years of peace. I know I didnt and I was very involved in trade policy as a whole because much of our trade policy involved Japan and I was very involved in that. Then he asked me to begin to work on certain personnelpresent him possible choices for the senior jobs in the department. Then maybe half of them we discussed about this person, that person. They just didnt believe it would work. And also, the opportunity to finally address what the real economic situation and fiscal situation was. We had so much going on that Bentsen asked me if I would just, on an interim basis, serve as interim chairman of the RTC. That was just an amazing experience. I might have if I had not known Bob Rubin, but I knew him better than anybody else in the administration knew him and I had great confidence in him and knew that he and I would relate well. Ill never forget, I went in to see one of them whod been shot eight times. There was a stimulus package that dwindled, right? There was also a whole series of other investigations undertaken at the same time, one by the Office of Government Ethics, one by the Treasury Inspector General, one by the Office of White House Counsel. This would have been before you were in the transition office? I think his views at that point were in formation. It was a mixture of people and some of the names I recall of course were George Stephanopoulos and Gene Sperling, Bob Rubin, Bob Reich, Rob Shapiro, myself. No, I did not. I mean, youre sent down there, you have no training for it. He must have had enough of a political antenna to realize this was going to be a tough call in a Democratic constituency in Pennsylvania or Michigan. Hed been shot eight times. I just know from prior experience that thats the way to do it. I mean, the reasons why Japan has had such difficulty in terms of its domestic economy are not reasons that an agreement with the United States is going to importantly affect, no more than our signing a trade agreement with Japan that committed us to try to do more at home to pump up our economy would be a big element in whether we did or didnt ultimately see economic growth here. So the dynamic between the two was quite an interesting dynamic and quite quicklyto come to your pointafter the stimulus plan went down, Clinton began deferring to Bentsen on everything. What did you find on the ground when you got there, if I could? Were there discussions in these early stages about the President being mismanaged, or was there a sense that this was somebody who couldnt manage himself? There was a lot of effort and a lot of meetings. From that time forward, about 79 times out of 80 Clinton did whatever Bentsen said. That approach hasnt been able to capture a majority of the American public for 40 years and I dont think its going to capture the majority of the American public for another 40 years. Yes. How were those dealt with, the decision to make a significant concession in the bill? If were talking about 1991, I think his ideas were in formation. Its not clear to me however that history will accord him that credit. Altman donated $41,000 to the Biden Action Fund, a joint fundraising committee, in May, according to Federal Election Commission records. Its really a bad thing to say to a senior Cabinet officer, Well, your deputy isWe dont want to get off on that, but thats a very bad approach. Bentsen could tell you, within 4 percent accuracy, what was going to happen to every one of these bills. You say he didnt inspire fierce loyalty amongst a lot of his subordinates, but interestingly, I think a lot of the senior Cabinet members lasted a long time, I mean, they stayed for muchDonna Shalala was Secretary for eight years, Rubin was in for a long time, given the fact that his family didnt move to Washington. The most frantic imaginable effort was going on during the five or six hours preceding that vote. I had really not fully ever grasped from my Wall Street days, that there was a great big regulatory side to it including enforcement side, where the RTC was also charged with pursuing investigations against former thrift officials and ultimately prosecuting them if circumstances warranted. His Presidency itself I think was a very strong one, but it doesnt make it into the top five or six. But Clinton went for it, Clinton listened, Clinton deserves tremendous credit. I was exposed to that, but I didnt have a particular say in it. Very, I think, untoward behavior, myself. So, as always happens, the policy apparatus was being built and the policy process was being deepened and becoming more sophisticated as the entire campaign evolved. Can you tell us a little bit about the second role? We assembled Carter and Ford and George H. W. Bush, and various other luminaries, Jim Baker, [Henry] Kissinger and so forth, to project a bipartisan front on NAFTA and Clinton gave the speech of his life. He observed to me right off the bat that this was going to be very complicated and no cakewalk, right off the bat. So essentially you would not have been involved in any of the crafting, I guess, you basically were given an agreement and it was a question of just lining up the votes at this point. While at the University, It was just an evolution of the prior role. Well, within about two weeks of the election, certainly by the end of November, the actual transition offices were established in Washington. Were there other international issues that occupied your time at Treasury, significant slices of your time? Why? So I was going down to Waco, Texas. I knew Paul Tsongas and he was a nice man, a good man, but he was not a good politician and I didnt see Paul Tsongas being the nominee. If you think about his history, Bentsen had been a highly decorated war hero. But the burden of my question was it would be a lot of the people whod voted for the economic package that youre putting in this position, right? The Republicans quite shrewdly picked out some that didnt make sense and off the bat marshaled a very focused attack on it. I wasnt telling him anything he didnt know, God knows, but that we were going to enter now a different phase in terms of the laser light of press scrutiny on policies and that we had to deepen the entire effort, and there was agreement on that. he is one of famous Financial professional with the age 75 years old group. Casey resigned and it was vacant. Did you do any traveling with Clinton on the campaign around New York or outside of New York? But as to whether it was an innovation, I doubt it. There was a group of three or four of us who were doing Japan policy. All types of dire predictions were put forward. Well, Im not actually trying to establish whether these were particularly important in the campaign. The independent counsel statute had, if my memory serves, expired during the Clinton first year, then was revived, and then was allowed again to expire. If nobody else has any more questions about that, the other trade issue that you were greatly involved with that we touched on only once or twice has been Japan. As everybody knows, ultimately there was not a single Republican vote cast for it, neither in the House nor the Senate. Do you recall in your conversations with Senator Bentsen, were there missed opportunities for developing a more bipartisan atmosphere in Washington at this time, or was it pretty much just a foregone conclusion that because the Republicans were now completely in the minority that they were going to obstruct from the outset? But the reason I remember it was that it was funereal. But you think that by January 20th, this basic division of the fundamental economic policy. In business. How big a group was doing this recasting? I guess we have to just win then. I sat there for two or three hours and he took the measure of me and at the end he said, Would you like to do this? Web(Studio: Charles Gibson) Earlier interview held with Evercore Partners Roger Altman about the House vote and the market reaction. The Federal Government doesnt have much of a role in education. So its funny how reality quickly returns. I knew Bentsen enough by reputation to know it was not by any means all set up, so to speak, by the time I went in there. Yes, hes just that way. Bill Clinton, by that one- or two-line standing, may not make the cut for the top tier. As I remember the NAFTA campaign was kicked off only a month or two later. It wasnt as simple as that, lay the groundwork for a new agreement. It was going to be a different kind of animal. Clintons very first initiative was his stimulus program. But apropos of my comments earlier that classic, unreconstructed liberalism had never been my cup of tea, I never identified with Mario Cuomo. You referred earlier to the cycles of political partisanship, policy issues. Theodore Roosevelts name comes up occasionally as somebody that even Clinton himself had at least a temporary fixation on when he was evidently considering his own legacy as some one who took a progressive era, being a kind of rough approximation to the. Some of the things on the wish list made a lot of sense, but some of them didnt. No. I was defeated in my effort to become student body president, as, interestingly, was Clinton. Those characteristics I thought were rather evident upon meeting him just a few times. A lot of the talk was about the public credit markets responding, not so much the Fed. I started having to respond with a standard boilerplate response to the effect that the RTC has these procedural options and we were choosing among them. That was partly because Bentsen was a person who had never failed at anything. There were no violations of ethical guidelines, there was certainly no legal violation, and that proved to be pretty meaningless in the context of the uproar. He remained in those positions until Lehman was sold. What political or personal characteristics does she have that he doesnt have, what does she bring to the. But, first, right at the outset, it was a terribly flawed idea to have a full-time member of the administration serving also as the head of an independent regulatory agency and that should have dawned on me in the earliest going, just the inherent conflict there. Was that equally true of the colleagues that you were making sales to with Clinton? I was there to the last day of the Carter Presidency, and all of a sudden we were able to negotiate the release of those hostages. Was it his personality that won, or was he able to? To make a long story short, of course we all hired lawyers and so forth and we were brought before a grand jury. Will policy differences be the reason that candidate X or candidate Y emerges with the nomination? Do you think any of those are due to the sort of pressure. Did you have close relations with people in Cuomos operation, because I think, at least in the early stages, there was still a consideration that he might come out? Bentsen said, Youre going to ask for this, and youre going to get this, meaning that. There were, however, many people who thought, I would say this was the majority view: well ask for this, were going to end up with this. I also think it is wrong politically. Those would be the main points Id mention. I believe Perots presence helped Clinton because Perot kept saying how messed up the country was, so that actually helped the challenger rather than the incumbent. A group of four of us were named at the same time: Bentsen, Rubin, [Leon] Panetta, and myself. So it was a quick learning experience for Clinton. My point is, I thought the whole discussion had a considerable impact on Clinton, as did scores of others along the way after that. Carter, whos a wonderful man, God knows, however is very rigid. No, two funny stories, Jim, dont let him off so easily. Of course it was a very small kind of backwater type of situation, not a big one. One of the things that you mentioned that was in your portfolio was selling the budget package. Although the President really thought he could convince more Democrats of the merits of NAFTA than he ultimately did. Bentsen had a lucidits hard to describe how lucid Bentsens observations always were. He could have been all rhetorical about it. The Clinton stimulus plan just was not well conceived. I mean, I just thought he was such a hero. Senior Management, U.S. Investment Banking and Evercore ISI businesses are conducted through Evercore Group L.L.C., a member of. I said to him, If I should resign, then thats what I want to do. Were you privy to the conversations that he had? This wont help you because its not very original, but theres something about President Clinton that had the effect of rubbing salt on a wound as far as his opponents were concerned. But an awful lot of people love being Cabinet officers and leave only most reluctantly. Not likely, and was not the case in 92. Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia, Notice of Non-Discrimination and Equal Opportunity. He knew what was possible; he knew what wasnt possible. And then, of course, the political people in the White House: George Stephanopoulos of course, and others in the White House. I went and visited the injured agents in the hospital. I think there were missed opportunities, yes; I dont believe they would have made a big difference however. Why a war room? My comment is a retrospective comment. Theres one thing about Clinton that I think is beyond debate, that hes a fabulous politician. I think. So yes, the themes were in the State of the Union. Well, that was, in retrospect, the Bill Clinton Show, and he demonstratedit was, I think, very clever in retrospect. The questions from all these different parts of the countryOregon, Louisiana, Michiganwere all the same. I was often at the National Economic Council meetings that deliberated on those. We wont get into a philosophy, an argument, about causation, I think Reagans Presidency, a bit, goes against what youre saying, thats all. And the next point I want to make is, there was a fateful meeting, like most of these things, very well chronicled now, in Little Rock, up at the transition, the economic team, lasted many hours, very organized meeting in the sense that it had a set of presentations and then a broad discussion. And there were obviously a whole host of people who were against it from day one and you werent going to change anybodys mind in the latter category. The vote was really the most dramatic moment I ever experienced in six-and-a-half years of government service. Sure. You referred earlier to Garys question that most of the decisions that Clinton made about his priorities came post-election, but the process. The Times, which is typically, of course, a Democratic-leaning paper, was Clintons severest clinic throughout his whole Presidency, and on Whitewater went crazy. But I interpreted that to mean, Maybe you should, because I felt that if he thought I shouldnt, hed say so. Did he interact comfortably with the other leaders at the summit? What did you mean when you said, I knew how not to do it? The time for horse-trading was over. That was just how all Presidents should act. We can go into that in a little more depth, the pure politics part of it. It was quite an experience, in retrospect. In the initial phases it was really broad strategy because we didnt yet know. Clinton, as I mentioned before, held a series of marathon meetings, I recall that virtually all of them were on the Roosevelt Room, and they went on for four, five, six, seven hours, talking about possible elements of the economic program. Can you tell us how you first got to know Bill Clinton? Word comes up, you just say nothing. It was just not the way to run the railroad. That day I knew we were headed for defeat. I divided my time between the transition office and the Treasury. He told me that at the very beginning. So the experience of visiting these guys, some of whom were right on the edge, made tremendous impact on me. But in retrospect he basically decided in his simple-minded way that he was going to grind the Soviet Union right into the dust, and he did. Was there anything particular in his record in Arkansas that became sticking points with people in the community that you were attempting to raise money from? But I think the most that the Fed can be expected to do is move short rates. Bentsen was just a legend and Clinton had never served in Washington and Lloyd Bentsen was a king of Washington. It was easy. Well, yes, Carter tried a version of that. President Clinton, in retrospect, his disavowals on some of his private life were almost certainly false and the way he handled the Lewinsky matter was about as bad as it could be because heessentially swore before the American people that he didnt do it, and of course then recanted. and the period of time during whichtheres a window during which it had to be submitted for a vote. That was a factor. I said I would and we went forward. I did. So we were not classmates, and we were not buddies in that sense, but we knew each other pretty well by standards of students who were not in the same year. I ran into Alice on the plane. He was fully free to say no to that. Was the center of gravity in the White House, with you, or was it none? It was not an accident that he did that. Tweet. Thats something we dont have a lot of information about. He never did anything spontaneously, at least professionally speaking. So I wasnt sure what was going to happen, but there was no one in the field that was suddenly squashing everyone else including Clinton. It is especially important then for the people who worked with him to give us reflections on his role. Please. Im thinking of what historians will say. I might have a point of view about what those ought to be based on certain inputs I was receiving directly from the Hill and we need to work more on this or that. It was excellent. I went down there one day, came back the next day. And the field against which Clinton ultimately competed was not a strong field. It turned out that the thing had really been left by the wayside and there was very little of the necessary planning that had gone into it and it was about two months off. Ira Magaziner himself, whom I had known for some time, was a gigantic intellect. And, to some degree it was also, of course, for Clinton to take the measure of certain people he might be appointing. As I recall, the distinctive thing about Clinton, if everyone had one courageous stand, his was on free trade. He just determined each time that what he had to do was get through this chapter and somehow live to fight for the next one and didnt take the longer view. He knew how every member would vote. I dont think Id ever met her, but we were serving on the same board together and we became acquainted and occasionally talked about getting together some way or other. That was the day the earth moved and Clintons view changed. If you take the transition as one chunk of time, rather than chopping it up into chapters, I did a lot of work on personnelwe all did a lot of work on policy development, what was the economic policy going to be, and getting right down to very specific potential decisions. Gravity in the transition office from prior experience that thats the way to do stimulus just! 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