Sure. Ive crowned myself king, and I demand it. We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. . Because I believe that, I think Steve would agree, baptism is at least an ordinance we ought to carry out. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. All right. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. Okay. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. And thats why I went [inaudible 01:47:13] and why I argued, how is it used specifically in the New Testament? Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? Can it be used in the case without contradicting scripture? Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. You have seven-, All right. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. Suppose we discovered the actual cross Jesus had been crucified on. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. Thank you very much, Trent. Here we go. I have to say, maybe, and Trent brought this up in the debate, when it talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus and using adelphoi to mean that it always means biological brother. So in Mark chapter one, verse 19, it says, James is the son of Zebedee, and it uses the Greek definite article. What about the other Marian Dogmas? 0. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? Just for fun, I mean, I would probably enjoy listening to Ignatius. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. I do. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. Thank you very much, Trent. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. Well, a lot to cover here. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. Im sure Trent doesnt think that that man is immaculate conceived, because there are those at Catholic Answers and elsewhere who thinks [Greek 00:48:09] or [Greek 00:48:11] eight means that they were always in a state of grace, meaning that Mary was sinless. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. We ought to do it. Give the person you disagree with a listen, really try to understand where theyre coming from because if after hearing their position, you still disagree with it, at least youll be better informed about what Protestants or Catholics believe so you can better engage them and resist the temptation to attack straw met. Yeah. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. If it was an eyewitness account, I suppose someone would had to have been informed about that. Yeah, sure. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. You got five minutes, right? Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. Steve Christie: According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. Because the word adelphi would imply that they Its normal use would be that you have the same parents, at least one of the same parents. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. So much the same way Jesus was free from original sin and personal sin, yet when he was on the cross, its not like the nails couldnt go through his hands because hes free from sin, so hes immortal. . Because they have the same father but different mothers. Obviously the Bible does not teach that every woman had sexual relations. Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. I think it provides strong evidence for it. Steve said that if Mary and Joseph had remained virgins, they would violate late St. Pauls teaching about marriage in First Corinthians Seven. Honestly, Id have to think about it. Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. So my quick mini rebuttal. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. Since I dont believe in the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura, I dont have to prove these dogmas from scripture alone. And I think that in general, those arguments arent very strong, but in some cases, saying that something is fitting can point us in that direction. Solo performances by Steve Christie bring all the sound of a live band to your special event. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. We do this by elevating the quality of our members branding to match the excellence of the content being delivered. He says this is for, oh, Hey, now you have to give one to Steve. So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. Jesuss kin in Nazareth did not fully understand his status as the Messiah. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Oh, wow. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. First, when it comes to adelphos and adelphi, I think Steve would agree with me that, in general, what that word means in scripture is that you have the same biological mother and father. Lutheran Calvin, I would expect that. The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Number two is when Steve said, well, I dont think the church died off. . Okay. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of almighty God and the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. After leaving the Bills after the 2000 season, Christie played with the Chargers and Giants. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. Okay. Steve will point to Jesus in sacred scripture. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. Facebook So these Marian Dogmas are not optional or fitting for the faithful Catholic to believe, but are required and binding to the Catholic to remain in good standing in communion with the Roman Catholic church, despite them all contradicting God breathed scripture. And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. In fact, Josephus recorded a Zechariah being killed in the temple thirty-five years after the crucifixion (Jewish War 4:5:4). Alright? Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. Why would that be the case? Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. I was citing Baukham on that point, and [Greek 00:52:31] is just not used in the New Testament, so its just not a common word. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. Itll change your life, no doubt. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. Dr. Steven Christie, MD is a Diagnostic Radiology Specialist in Miami, FL and has over 28 years of experience in the medical field. I thought about writing a book on-. That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. Overview. Does the Bible teach that no human being has ever been assumed into heaven? I already have. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. It is currently the longest field goal ever made in Super Bowl History. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. That sums it up. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. United States. So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. Yeah. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. Did I have one other thing here? Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. Their issue is about the authority of the church. Not Really Of Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Abandon the Faith? But even at that, the Greek word for adelphi, in the Old Testament, when its used, its used even in a translation, not to mean anything other than a biological sister or a believing sister, like the sister nations of Israel and Judah. This has led biblical scholars to make a variety of proposals for the identity of this Zechariah. I was wrong there. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. Steven Christie Founder & Director / Support Coordinator / Specialist Support Coordinator / Psychosocial Recovery coach at Support Base Bendigo, Victoria, Australia 1K followers 500+ connections. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. 0 (0 ratings) Leave a review. January 07, 1964. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. This is hard, isnt it? Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. Sure. It would always demand that. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. Should we baptize babies or not? Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. As the Apostle Paul wrote in his fourth chapter in his epistle to the Roman church, For what does Scripture say? I mean, you got me on the spot. Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. Lets debate the Apocrypha! Steve Cable, April 18, 2022 Steve Cable explains how the apostle Peter showed himself to be a master apologist, not the bumbling, brash fisherman he used to be. Did they think that there was anything unbiblical about Mary being ever Virgin? They have also lived in Garden City Park, NY and Bayside, NY. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967) [1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. Does the Bible say that every human person without exception has been conceived in original sin? On March 5, 2008 Christie retired from professional football. Okay. Wouldnt they have noticed that their child up to the age of 12 or 13, however, she was, that she had not committed a single sin? As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. He became sinner. No, because their issue with Rome was about the sole authority of scripture over the sole authority of the church. Can a person die? Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. This is make or break time. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. The Pharisees did not have unique doctrinal authority over all other Jews since, Jesus said the Pharisees shared the seat of Moses with the scribes (Matt. In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. So then it isnt literally saying every single human has sinned or every man has sinned. So the protestant reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did they believe Mary was a perpetual Virgin and were they committed to Sola scriptura? . We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? So Ive got two more questions here. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. Well, in your example, its talking about father. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from me.. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . Theyll say that I dont believe it, but Steve might say it doesnt contradict scripture necessarily. Second, this debate is not about the church fathers or Christian history. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. 2022 Defenders Media All Rights Reserved, Apologetics315 is a ministry of Defenders Media, 501(c)(3) a non-profit organization. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. Even Trent has argued that the word does not mean to be immaculately conceived. Thank you very much, Trent. The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. Im surprised that you would pick Aquinas since he did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. Steve Ray was the third of five children in a family that became Baptist in the 1950s. Well the thing is, in both cases in the Septuagint and in Lukes gospel, theyre both in the perfect passive of participle, so theyre being used the same way. The word adelphos is used numerous times in both the Old and New Testament to describe people who have had the same parents. He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. All righty. You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. Thats kind of hard. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. And I also showed his other arguments to try to show that Mary gave birth to other children, such as from Psalm 69, Luke chapter two, as well as the idea that Matthew 1:25 requires that she and Joseph had sexual relations. So Im not going to comment on that. No, Bauckham talks about this in his article that in some context, Jesus would be referred to as the son of Joseph, especially among those who were not familiar with his family life in Nazareth. He was human. And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. So does that mean that Mary could have had daughters because it says, the son of Mary? And again, as a Roman Catholic, I would expect them to because their issue is not about Mary. So its irrelevant. It is fitting, therefore its true. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. Take your time there, Steve, getting yourself ready. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. This is how God as savior is used in both testaments. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. All right. So while not common, it is used. And this is what I did in the opening statement. Do you know him? So whether we are discussing the Marian dogmas, the papacy, the purpose of baptism or communion, or the biblical Canon, the real authority behind these debates is whether you trust in the sufficiency of God [inaudible 01:52:23] Scripture to reel itself to you or to the Magisterium, which often conflicts with it. The apostle Paul affirms this in 1 Corinthians 15:22, In Adam all die. Meaning all of mankind spiritually, including Mary, which Paul clarifies in verses 47 to 49. You answer that and then Ill ask Steve the next question. Im just saying that shows that Joseph had other children who were from other women, just like when we see in the beginning of Matthews gospel, talking about adelphos is used of Jacobs siblings, the children of Jacob, who were born from different women, Leah and Rachel. The relevance would be that you are using it. We have to remember that. He offered them in the debate. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. All right. So lets apply these standards to the remaining dogmas.